tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7581614926672563071.post8606069225971529065..comments2023-03-30T04:37:22.283-07:00Comments on The Savvy, The Extreme & The Idealist: Israel, Gaza and "Anti-Semitism"the beige onehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07942559613808788504noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7581614926672563071.post-47221450207500487202010-06-15T06:57:33.456-07:002010-06-15T06:57:33.456-07:00You don’t need to know any Muslims to see it. We’v...You don’t need to know any Muslims to see it. We’ve just been through a week of mainstream newspapers calling for an invasion of Israel or comparing it to Iran, ``Jews get the hell out of Palestine’’, and Hamas and Nazi flags waving in the streets of Istanbul. But it was Jewish propaganda that moved you to write a 3,330-word post? Seems self-explanatory that you’re going to have trouble coming off as balanced if you can’t even find room in such a long essay to note the recent anti-Jewish lowlights, or even just to say clearly that this crap comes from both sides. Your focus is so disproportionate as to raise the obvious question of balance. <br /><br />It is strange given that you say you hate propaganda but choose not to address the side that could use a pro-peace wing, instead picking on the one that offers a plurality of voices. Chomsky and Krauthammer man the fringes of a very wide spectrum of opinion. There are principled hard-left commentators like Naomi Klein, disillusioned Zionists like Wieseltier and Beinart, anti-Israel academics like Tony Judt, etc. Israel's Haaretz newspaper has advocated returning the territories basically since they were won. The current issue of Newsweek features a major in the IDF reserves writing on how Israel must change its ways. This is all mainstream media. The debate rages on in public too – tomorrow night in NYC the head of JStreet will debate Jeffrey Goldberg, of The Atlantic, on how to reconcile Zionism and liberalism.<br /><br />Though I agree with the basics of your opinion on this event – Israel was wrong and its approach to the conflict has become indefensible – there are also a few spots where you further weaken the no-bias claim. And it is wise to remember that while the IDF's actions are awful, there are still many impressibe things about Israel, Israelis (the secular ones), and the society they built. One example is saying that Israel isn’t really a democracy. You have mixed up democracy and church-state separation. They are two different things. Though they often come together, and you and I probably wish they would always, the latter is not part of the definition of democracy. <br /><br />Reality is that Israel has free and fair elections and is the only place in the Middle East where an Arab can vote or participate meaningfully in a legislative process. Israel has a free press in a region in which cartoonists are condemned to death. It has a functioning court system and a transparent government. Citizens can and have successfully sued the military over their handling of the conflict – that’s a degree of democracy unheard of in most countries. When you say Israel isn’t a democracy in the face of these facts you aren’t going to be perceived as unbiased.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12419577629882986032noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7581614926672563071.post-68860416500559448162010-06-12T13:24:45.413-07:002010-06-12T13:24:45.413-07:00I agree with TBO that you make some valid points M...I agree with TBO that you make some valid points Matt, and those are great links. And yes, maybe my essay could have been more clear that I don't think ALL American Jews are crazy biased (and in fact I've gotten compliments for this piece from some of them outside of this comment page), but I do think it was at least implied by my quoting of a Jewish friend who doesn't support Israel policies and the link to the banned list compiled by the Jewish human rights group. They are a group that has been the most vocal against Israel's Gaza blockade than just about anybody. So I didn't feel it necessary to have to write a whole paragraph to assert the fact I know there are Jews out there who don't blindly support all of Israel's actions. I don't think I have to be sure to point out that I don't think ALL priest are child-rapists if I want to talk about priests who rape children, as an example.<br /><br />But I certainly don't see your evidence of my supposed bias in this piece. I think I make very clear that I think all religion is equally bad (despite my attempts to joke about Catholicism, etc) so I really don't have an extra dislike for Jews or Muslims over nany others. I thoink disliking all religion is very unbiased.<br /><br />I care about human rights for all people regardless of their spiritual beliefs (as long as they leave me the hell alone with it). I find that most religious people tend to only care about their fellow myth-believers' rigths. Christians only stand up for Christians, Jews only stand up for Jews, Muslims only stand up for Muslims, etc. Yes I know there are many exceptions to that rule, but overall I think people tend to be more offended by their own being oppressed than when it is happening to others.<br /><br />And this post was aimed specifically at what propaganda has been sent to me over this issue. Yes, I imagine there is stuff coming from the other side that is just as questionable as the pro-Israeli edited tape. But - and I meant to point this out in the essay but forgot - fact is, I don't have any Muslim friends so don't know what is being pushed out there by that side. It certainly has shown up in the media like the video that the Israeli military wants us to see.<br /><br />So, I agree you have made some solid points, but any claim of my bias in this issue I really don't see where you get that. I would say that I'm like switzerland, but they were really just Nazi's who pretended to not be in the war. So I won't say that.<br /><br />Also thank you (S)wine, TBO and Keda for your comments. Appreciate them.Denihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17811436888451510514noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7581614926672563071.post-91679911049592904852010-06-12T01:00:42.188-07:002010-06-12T01:00:42.188-07:00Good points, Matt, and thank you for replying. Ju...Good points, Matt, and thank you for replying. Just as Deni asserted that he doesn't speak for the group, I prep this reply by noting that I do not speak for him or Swine.<br /><br />That there is a dissenting liberal faction within Israel and politically active Jews both in the US and abroad is something that is known, but is not exactly common knowledge. This could be tied to what has become a bigger hobby horse for me of late: the woefully inadequate state of journalism and media in this country.<br /><br />The two essays/articles you mention, for example, were not known to me; and I spend a fair amount of time each day reading news sites. For that reason alone, I am glad you responded.<br /><br />The truth is that, in the US, discussion about Israeli/Muslim is dominated by Conservatives, whether Jewish or from the GOP, to the point where Glenn Beck is going around calling people anti-Semitic. Glenn Beck. <br /><br />Also, the MSM has traditionally not offered an opposing view to this narrative.<br /><br />I believe that this fact of life is what Deni is railing against in his post; it's an essay aimed directly at this recalcitrant arm of the discussion (will they hear it? Probably not, but at least this is all out in the collective unconscious now).<br /><br />For the record, I find that I agree with him point for point through his essay.<br /><br />All of that said, you're right, Matt, it would've been right and proper to point out that it ain't all hawk-ish Jews out there, and provide links as proof.<br /><br />Thanks for the feedback.<br /><br />tbothe beige onehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07942559613808788504noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7581614926672563071.post-42650528932794185322010-06-11T12:00:45.254-07:002010-06-11T12:00:45.254-07:00But the author's slant seems to be that he'...But the author's slant seems to be that he's not slanted. He asks to be listened to as an unaligned and objective observer:<br /><br /><i>Point is, I don't have a dog in this fight. I think that rather than accusing me of bigotry, pro-Israeli American Jews should just maybe for a minute consider that I might be coming at this issue with a better sense of reason, logic, fairness and a hell of a lot less bias than them.</i><br /><br />I disagree with that assertion. I didn't address all of the elements of that post, so as to keep it short and focused. But I think the parts I did comment on do call into question the absence of bias and the presence of reason, logic and fairness. I assume good intentions, but I think the post does not live up to them.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12419577629882986032noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7581614926672563071.post-72397126590887623292010-06-11T10:32:08.132-07:002010-06-11T10:32:08.132-07:00I do believe S.E.I. is more of an opinion forum. ...I do believe S.E.I. is more of an opinion forum. I am hard pressed (although I keep searching) to find an un-biased news venue; and so my M.O. for gathering information is going to several sources--knowing full well that the "truth" (whatever that may be) may well exist amalgamated from all that. The objective days of "dog bites man" or "bus tumbles into a ravine" have long been over. That is especially true of an op-ed venue. My slant is often quite apparent. And I am un-apologetic about that.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7581614926672563071.post-61078477126767778712010-06-10T18:48:32.164-07:002010-06-10T18:48:32.164-07:00As with any with other divisive issue there are sh...As with any with other divisive issue there are shrills and demagogues on both sides. The least reasonable are usually the ones shouting the loudest, and that pushes the majority in the middle to one extreme or the other. Liberal Jews posting propaganda on Facebook is one example. Another is otherwise sane people waving about the flags of Hamas while denouncing ``terrorism''. Hamas is the group that made the world intimately familiar with the concept of suicide bombing, yet the irony is lost. <br />You’re absolutely right that propaganda cheapens our discourse. So why not note that the debate among Jews is actually far more sophisticated than that? You could direct your alarmist Jewish friends to some thoughtful Jewish takes on the matter. Have you read Leon Wieseltier’s column in The New Republic entitled ``Operation Make the World Hate Us’’? Peter Beinart’s pre-flotilla essay about the American Jew’s liberal/Zionist conundrum has triggered astirred up quite a bit of debate too. It doesn’t take a flotilla to get Jews soul-searching about Israel. <br />Clearly not all of us have found our inner Sarah Palins. In America, J Street has emerged as a liberal Jewish lobbying group to rival the status-quo obsessed AIPAC. In Israel, B'tzelem, Haaretz, and other peace-promoting organizations within Israel are proof of the plurality of opinion among Jews, and have been around for deacdes. A reasoned, logical and fair blog post about Jewish writing on the conflict would have to note that good sources exist and provide a compelling alternative to the bad ones.<br />Another observation that belongs in an anti-propaganda essay is that the IDF isn’t the only producer of it in this conflict. Many of the very same people who are bashing Israel today also bashed it in 2002 after media reported Palestinian claims of thousands dead in a clash in Jenin. Israel allowed the UN to investigate, and the UN found 52 dead Palestinians and 23 dead Israelis. I don’t mention this to make light of 75 deaths, but to point out that a balanced post must make clear that the propaganda comes from both sides.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12419577629882986032noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7581614926672563071.post-12432331795776293512010-06-10T06:45:02.876-07:002010-06-10T06:45:02.876-07:00Frustrating and sad and very well said indeed.
i ...Frustrating and sad and very well said indeed.<br /><br />i couldn't agree more. thank you.kedahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05996009634057410650noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7581614926672563071.post-11756837822748063502010-06-09T03:36:49.696-07:002010-06-09T03:36:49.696-07:00Excellent piece. This conflict, or any religiousl...Excellent piece. This conflict, or any religiously-infused conflict, will never end. Ever. And if it does, it'll be sure to rear its ugly head later on in history. See the Yugoslav war in the early 90s, where dormant, vicious sentiment was dredged up from 3,000 years previous (Battle of Kosovo during which Christians slaughtered Muslims). <br /><br />Sadly, there aren't enough true progressive in this society to actually propel this country into the future. No matter who you say you are, if you are BOUND by the word of God...ANY GOD, there will be limitations and/or moral pathways which will be taken. This is only my opinion and I know it's controversial; I am one of maybe 12% atheists living in this country, so I realize the minority in which I navigate. But, in my life, if you introduce any semblance of the mystical or mythical or a Supreme Moral Being of any sort, you are bound by perhaps irrational and obtuse ideas, which will no doubt influence important decisions that TEND to be conservative.<br /><br />I am in full agreement with your opinion on Israel-Palestine. I have a difficult time getting my point across to people, like you have here, because I am a teeny weeny part Lebanese, and those who know that immediately dismiss my point of view as biased. It's not. I fully agree with everything you've written here, and feel like I now will print this out and just give it to people, rather than argue this point myself. Here, read my friend Deni's op-ed. Thank you. Good night. And good luck.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com